Time 0:01 Clint: I'm sitting here with David Stacks, the director of the Texas Prison Museum. It is Monday, October 24 at approximately 1:07pm. How are you doing today Mr. Stacks? Time 0:11 David Stacks: I'm doing well, thank you, sir. Time 0:13 Clint: So I read that you began your career as a correctional officer at the Byrd Unit and eventually worked your way up to become the deputy director of the prison system before your retirement. What year did you begin your career in the TDCJ? Time 0:23 David Stacks: I started my career as a correctional officer 1979. Time 0:27 Clint: Okay, so in 1979. So lethal injection was implemented in 1977. So that was only two years before you began your career in the TDCJ. So you essentially entered a new system in regard to how the state dealt with capital punishment. Can you explain how your initial role as a correctional officer influenced your own attitude toward the death penalty at this specific time? Time 0:48 David Stacks: Actually, when I came to work for the prison system that really wasn't even a thought in my daily routine as a correctional officer. Working at the Byrd Unit I had very limited contact with inmates that were on death row, or sentenced to death. And the reason for that is when a person is sentenced to death at that particular time, they would come to the Diagnostic Unit or the Byrd Unit, as it's called now, and we would take a mug shot, we would fingerprint him, give them the number and then they would be quickly moved out to the Ellis Unit where they were being kept at that time, during that timeframe. And then once they got to the unit out there, they would then perform the rest of the sociology type interviews out there. My other interaction with death row at Diagnostic was those individuals that had their sentences commuted to life and were able to get off the row. And those guys, what I found them to be is no different than an inmate who was doing time for theft, or robbery, or whatever. Although there were a couple of them that were pretty, pretty cold blooded individuals. But because of technicality, they got their sentences commuted. But all in all, all of them pretty much had the same type of outlook on life and mentality regarding prison life and things of that nature. Time 2:24 Clint: So therefore, your own personal attitude wasn't really influenced because there wasn't really a big difference between the inmates on death row and those in the general prison population? Time 2:30 David Stacks: No. I was raised in a home where we were biblically taught and you know, the Bible certainly talks about forgiveness and thank goodness for Christ and for dying for my sins. But you know, the New Testament also says if you live by the sword, you die by the sword so, you know, it supports the death penalty. There'll be a lot of people that would argue that, but I was raised in a home where the death penalty was not frowned upon. It was something that we were raised in a household to believe that some crimes needed to be dealt with in that manner. Time 3:07 Clint: So that was in 1979 that you began your career. Specifically, regarding lethal injection, Charlie Brooks, Jr. - the first individual who was executed in the state of Texas by lethal injection. What was your position when he was executed? Time 3:23 David Stacks I was still a correctional officer at the time at the Diagnostic Unit. Just a few months later, I was promoted to the rank of lieutenant down on the Ramsey Unit. I never did meet Charlie Brooks. Never had a conversation with him. But I recall that that was a very big to do at that time, because it was the first time that Texas had carried out a death sentence with the lethal injection as you well know and you've done your research to electric chair was used for several years from 1924 to 1964. And 361 men died in that chair; no women were ever executed in that chair. But Charlie Brooks was the first one, and there was somewhat of a carnival type atmosphere. I remember in the the Walls Unit those that were just totally against it and those that were for it. A lot of them were college students, some protesting against, you know, and others promoting the death penalty. Time 4:27 Clint: So you remember the day of the execution? Time 4:29 David Stacks: I don't remember the exact date, but I do remember going by there and seeing the multitudes of people. Time 4:36 Clint: On December 7 of 1982? Can you tell me about that day a little bit, what you saw when you drove by? Time 4:42 David Stacks: Yeah, like I say a good word would be multitude. There was a multitude of people there. Like I say there were a lot of young adults there, primarily I would say were college kids. But then there was those that were adamant about anti death penalty. Most of the students were pro death penalty from what I observed. It's kind of like your home depot, Saturday football atmosphere there I would say, as bad as I hate to say it, but that was kind of like the atmosphere of it at that time. Time 5:17 Clint: So, overall, the state's reaction to the execution. Do you remember was it controversial or was it in favor? Time 5:24 David Stacks: As far as the agency? Time 5:26 Clint: The specific execution of Charlie Brooks, given that it was a new method? Time 5:31 David Stacks: I don't recall there being any significant headlines that were just outrageously upset that this person lost his life, because that was what he was sentenced for. And I think if you were to talk to most anybody else in the agency that has had to work in execution would tell you that it's not something that they look forward to being a part of. But you know, that is the law in the state of Texas and as officials of the state of Texas, we have a responsibility to carry out that law. I would think that most of the people are hoping that that person has got his self right with his God, and he'll have a better afterlife. Time 6:24 Clint: This kind of goes with that. Comparing it to hanging and electrocution, was it considered cruel or were more people in favor of it because it was considered to be less cruel compared to the recent methods that had been used in the state? Time 6:39 David Stacks: From all the discussions that I've seen, and what I have heard is that it's kind of like those that are totally against the death penalty. I don't think it matters what method you use to carry out that sentence, they're gonna be totally against it. I think those individuals that are for the death penalty, I think there's a lot of people that I have talked to that would still think that a public execution would be more of a deterrent than what it is now. Of course, that's why that the state of Texas put the carrying out the sentence of death away from the counties and gave it to the state of Texas prison system because it was such a carnival type atmosphere at the hangings and things of that nature. It didn't speak well of our humanity. So that's when the legislature chose that the prison system would take over carrying out the executions in 1924 and had been doing so ever since. You know, certainly I think the death penalty, the way we carry it out today, is probably as humane as it's going to be, you know. The method in which are being used, these people go to sleep. I do understand why people would say that those people are hurting when they take their last breath. But what people need to understand is the medication being used is in the same class of drugs that are used on us in surgeries. Unfortunately, I've had several surgeries and I've known several people who've had surgeries and we didn't wake up from that surgery and say "nurse would you please go get that anesthesiologist because I want a piece of their a**, what they gave me hurt." If anything you say "can you get the anesthesiologist because I want some more of that stuff so I don't hurt." So there's really no factual basis that it hurts. Do they gurgle sometimes when they take their last breath? Yes, but so does somebody that snores at night. Time 8:53 Clint: With like sleep apnea? Time 8:56 David Stacks: Well if you've got a fatty airway. And I guess that's the only way I can describe it. You're going to make a gurgling sound. You know, you know, the fact is, and this is not to be a joke. But there's never been one complaint that it hurt. But the fact is when you take that along with the fact that the same narcotics are being used to take care of this individual's last sentence, death, there's not any factual basis that it hurts. Not that I've been able to identify or research and find. Time 9:30 Clint: Going off of that, since 1982, since Charlie Brooks was executed, has there ever been a controversial case in which like an inmate has gotten up off the table or you know, like screamed in agonizing pain because the medicine was painful? Time 9:46 David Stacks: Not that I know of. I've never heard of anything like that. The only botched execution that I'm aware of, I believe it occurred in Oklahoma. The state carried out an execution, I believe it was Oklahoma and I don't want to give them the prize for that if I'm wrong, but that execution did not go well and and it appeared from everything that I've read that they guy did suffer to some degree. And that's something that we don't want. I don't think anybody would want that to happen. I surely don't want anybody to suffer that way. People would say well, the victims of the crime they suffered a lot more. Well yes, they did. But as a judicial type of process I don't think we should be cruel and beyond punishment in what we have to do to carry out the sentence. That's just my opinion. Time 10:45 Clint: Do you know what prompted the implementation/the introduction of lethal injection? Like specifically in the state of Texas? Did it have anything to do with Gregg versus Georgia and Furman versus Georgia back in the 1960s? Time 10:55 David Stacks: Well, I don't know that that necessarily had anything to do with it. I know that we were the second state in the union to adopt lethal injection. Oklahoma was the first. Texas was the second underneath governor Dolph Briscoe's reign as governor. I think that, you know, Georgia versus Furman had a lot to do with the appellate process, you know. Again, I'm not an expert in it, but I believe prior to Furman versus Georgia, there was not an automatic appeal process. I may be wrong, but there certainly is now whether the inmate that gets sentenced to death wants an appeal, it's an automatic appeal. And then any appeals thereafter is up to him and his legal team to bring those forward. Time 11:47 Clint: And then since Brooks's execution in 1982, has there been any indication that the TDCJ may change their method of execution once again? Time 11:55 David Stacks: No, not that I'm aware of. Time 11:57 Clint: Like what could we possibly introduce? Time 12:01 David Stacks: You know, the agency at one time had some difficulties I believe getting some of the drugs necessary to carry out a sentence. But I can't imagine that the agency would ever go back to any other type of method of carrying out that sentence. To me that is the most peaceful way to end someone's life. To me that's, I don't think there's a better way. I've heard people say well, the guillotine is the quickest of it all. It severs the spine and spinal cord and all that, but that's pretty gruesome. Would you just think about it. So, I don't think the state of Texas would consider anything else other than what they're doing right now. Time 12:53 Clint: And then two of these questions you've done a perfect job. You answered them in addition to some of the other questions and it was basically just: Do you believe that lethal injection is a more humane or efficient way to execute inmates? And you said... Time 13:08 David Stacks: Well I think it's more humane. Time 13:11 Clint: Efficiently, though, compared to the other methods? Time 13:14 David Stacks: Well, you know, depends how you want to define efficient. If we're talking about quickness, I would say yes, it is. If we're talking about monetary, probably not, you know. But from basically a humane, efficient way of ending a person's life that has been tried by his peers and sentenced to that. That is by far I think, the very best way to carry out such a sentence. Time 13:44 Clint: From what you've witnessed throughout your career and the knowledge you've obtained, compared to our past methods of execution - hanging and then electrocution - you obviously believe that lethal injection is better as opposed to those two, correct? Time 13:59 David Stacks: Yes, I do. I think that, you know, vengeance, a lot of people want to let their vengeance come out and they would be more supportive of electric chair or a hangman's noose. But you know, it's not for us to have revenge, it is to carry out justice. And I think that sentence, the way it's being carried out now in Texas, I think that's by all means the very best way for the state to carry that out and give dignity to that person. Time 14:35 Clint: Throughout your career with the TDCJ, how did the attitudes surrounding the death penalty change, if at all? I know that you said at the beginning when you came in as a correctional officer, on your mind, it wasn't even apparent to you and to everybody else. It wasn't really even like a known thing. But obviously, that has changed, even over the past decade alone. So how has that changed from what you'd seen throughout your own career? Time 14:58 David Stacks: Well, I think the biggest change for me is the way that the courts are now starting to rule. You're starting to see now in Texas, you're starting to see people who get a life sentence without parole, and they get that as opposed to the death penalty. And I do believe that you're going to see less and less and less sentences of death being issued out because it is such an expensive sentence to hand down. By the time a person gets to his last appeal, and it's time for that sentence to be carried through, there has just been ungodly amounts of money spent adjudicating that appellate process. I think we've already seen it in Texas, the death penalty doesn't get handed out very often anymore. You take a county that is very limited in resources, it can pretty well bankrupt the county as much as it almost did over in Jasper when they had the Byrd trial. Time 16:13 Clint: Did working with inmates influence your personal attitude toward the death penalty at all? You talked about how you grew up in the household, and to each their own. But, you know, I'm just curious to know, was there like a certain type of offender or a specific offender that you had come into contact with, that you knew had committed a crime, and that possibly influenced, you know, the way that you felt about them and how their sentence or punishment should be carried out? Time 16:49 David Stacks: There is one in particular. When I was a young major down on the Retrieve Unit years ago we had an inmate in our population who had been on death row once before. His name was Kenneth Macduff. And Kenneth Macduff was the only inmate ever to be put on death row twice. He was originally put on death row for killing two young boys and a young lady, and when the Supreme Court ruled that the death penalty was unconstitutional, they overturned it with Furman versus Georgia. He got a life sentence. That was not a life sentence without parole, there was no such sentence back then. But he was put into population like all the inmates were on death row. And I got to know that guy pretty good... if anybody deserved to be executed, he did. Unfortunately, our Parole Board let this guy out, and within the first 90 days of his release he had already committed his first killing. And within two and a half years I believe he ended up killing 17 people; he liked to prey on young girls. He was a sure enough serial killer. When you looked in his eyes there wasn't a whole lot there. Time 18:08 Clint: It's like that that black, beady-like, hollow look. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Time 18:14 David Stacks: He's no longer with us. His sentence has been carried out, and the world is a better place because of it, but yeah. That type of individual comes to mind immediately and there's been some others I've dealt with that didn't get the death penalty that probably should have. You know, in my observation, not only of what their sentence was, but the way they conducted themselves once they got into the prison environment. Time 18:40 Clint: And then I just have two reflective questions real quick. Overall, and we've kind of talked about this throughout the interview, but overall, what do you believe the pros and cons to be of both electrocution and lethal injection if you were to compare the two? Time 18:57 David Stacks: Well, not ever having witnessed a electrocution sentence carried out, only reading it from some of the research I've done, that appears to be more of a gruesome, more of a revengeful type of sentence, and way of carrying out a sentence. It appears to be from what I've read that not necessarily the majority of the people in our country anymore want that. The ones that have I visited with, they're still okay with the death sentence carried out in the lethal injection. You know, it's hard to say whether or not the death penalty is a deterrent to crime. That's one of the things that people always say. Well, I can tell you this: it's a deterrent to that one. He will never, or she will never, do another crime. And I think if you were to carry out the sentences in a way that was a little bit more public, and doing it in a right way, I think it might have more of an effect. But again, that's just strictly my opinion. Time 20:15 Clint: During your career with the TDCJ, was there a specific execution that made you think differently about the method of execution used? Time 20:24 David Stacks: No, I can't say that it has. You know, I reflect back on a previous statement I said is, that is, you know, the victims of these perpetrators that receive the death penalty. What they did to these people was just beyond being human. And whether they were in their right mind because they were under the influence of a chemical, or whatever the case may be, everybody has a conscience. And there's no doubt even this guy I was telling you about, Kenneth Macduff, he had a conscience. He knew right from wrong, but he chose to do wrong because he was basically a bully and enjoyed bullying people. So no, I don't think so. Time 21:15 Clint: Well, that is pretty much the interview. Thank you so much again for your time today. And I greatly appreciate this, Mr. Stacks. Time 21:22 David Stacks: Thank you very much, I enjoyed it. Transcribed by https://otter.ai